mid sh and siege towers or something

[Arntzen]

I dont see why you use no BTD civ.. With BTD you can outmass enemy easier/faster.. If your goal is to kill someone early to mid-game its stupid to choose a slower civ. If you did beat someone who had BTD civ early then thats because you are the better player.

The big thing you're missing out on if you choose BTD civ is Pop cap. You can also have building cr/btd or Bali attack.

Also what we have been talking about in the BTD vs No BTD is a regular matchup (sword cav vs sword cav). Since BTD is more agressive you're chances are alot bigger vs sword+sword, and vs sword+knight.

Summary: BTD = agressive (kill before siege), no BTD is defenciv (defend untill siege). And 5 archery range is stupid.

[Captain Nemo]

trix I have yet to see u make ca in pocket I think lol, thats why I made an assumption. If you often go ca, just not when u're playing with me thats allright Ill pull it back. u're always going swords killing the other guy fast, or doing a siege rush or something alternative when I see u. Not saying I've played more mid sh, just ca.

Anyway I see your point about the simple logic in that BTD must be faster than no btd. But it's not that simple. It cost 19 points to do btd on your cav and the advantage is very tiny if u ask me. You're taking out either buildings cr, or btd and it's doubtful u have room for cit speed. I on the other hand, can make room for both cr on buildings and range+attack on my balli if I choose that or do the rush version with cit speed and btd on buildings, which is the one I go for in 2v2. Now it may just be because u were doing something wierd but remember that "1v1" we had we both made cav archer and I rushed u? That was without btd and I was outmassing u by far.

The reason I don't see BTD being so effective is that without BTD I can only just keep 2 archery range busy in the beginning, because I also upgrade. Because u gather so fast wood and the fact I have buildings cr, it's not a big deal to build a couple more ranges, and with cit speed I will be gathering a bit more wood, u'd be surprised how much.

And yes lightness that is exactly the point. The siege towers aren't so effective vs cav archers, they're effective against the cav archer/balli mix. Finally someone saw the truth.

Btw kaz I realise the civ with btd is the standard procedure, but I never really got why people didn't skip that up. If it's not worth 19 points early on, it's a total waste in late game.

[Arntzen]

Lets do an experiment. Tomorrow/tonight we both try both civ vs easy comp. Stop the game at f11 10, and count CA's, then restart game (for same map) and do the other civ. I'll test the cit speed thing while you test BTD. And we both post the results here?

As for what ST's are usefull against (except walls), well thats Arrow army type. They are a shield that works well vs mass CA and abit worse vs CA+Bali.

[Captain Nemo]

Okay did a quick test. 37 level 10 with BTD and 38 without (yeah idc if u hit 40 those were just without putting any effort to it, doing same thing on both civs and seeing which did better). The number is exactly equal it's just a matter of when my stuff comes out of the archery. Since I gather same gold amount with the strat I used I will have same number of cav because as I explained earlier the build time is not the issue for me when making cav archer, Ill keep my archeries busy, gold gathering is the deciding factor. No double mine in either games.

Anyway I made no towers in this game and gathered no food. If I was to do both, I'd have the advantage of both CR and BTD on buildings when getting my towers and houses up. Not only will I have more defense, but Ill also have it up faster thus getting cits working sooner and defending rushes better.

19 points for... nothing. I hope u can justify why u use BTD.

[[-Ts-] Tricky]

yea i dont have cav btd in my civ i rather have the bali range + attack but depends what you perfer or suits either player

[Arntzen]

Those results are pretty shocking to me, I will test it myself tomorrow.

[Ghost]

I think you guys need to get back on topic or take your pissing match to new thread

[Elite]

CA vs. swords without BTD is suicide, of course it should be suicide anyway but most sword players are morons. Obviously if you use a non BTD civ and start adding ranges at 4-5 f11 you will close the timeline gap pretty quickly, but against a sword player or fairly aggressive CA player the lack of BTD will kill you before 10 f11. If you are able to focus heavily on your eco and production, lack of BTD doesn't matter so much. In a real game where you have to spend most of your time micro'ing your CA, BTD is huge. It allows you to rapidly increase the size of your CA mass with 2 ranges until after 10 f11, which allows you to focus entirely on attacking/defending and micro.

[herik]

it really all depends, ive seen pro cav players go down, coz the enemy massed 20 seige towers in a 1v1?, witha big cav army. imo a form of cheating but thats me.

[[-Ts-] Tricky]

i dont see how u can class seige towers a form of cheating if someone wants to make that many cavs mass cavs then u go a counter to it. If your classing counter strats cheating dam lol i want some of what your smoking

In team games i got no btd and because i swap to bali pretty fast i have np i get my range and attack upgrade quick as and it rapes soon as bali full upgrade with a double its gg and with houses + hospital to defend i had np with sword eco hits but i make keeps sometimes to stop a sword eco hit what works nice.

[Arntzen]

I realize my "f11 10 experiment" was retarded. Just read what Elite said

[Captain Nemo]

CA vs. swords without BTD is suicide, of course it should be suicide anyway but most sword players are morons. Obviously if you use a non BTD civ and start adding ranges at 4-5 f11 you will close the timeline gap pretty quickly, but against a sword player or fairly aggressive CA player the lack of BTD will kill you before 10 f11. If you are able to focus heavily on your eco and production, lack of BTD doesn't matter so much. In a real game where you have to spend most of your time micro'ing your CA, BTD is huge. It allows you to rapidly increase the size of your CA mass with 2 ranges until after 10 f11, which allows you to focus entirely on attacking/defending and micro.

You're right. Building a 3rd range at 3-4 f11 takes my entire conzentration away. Although I will get my cav archer 50% faster this way it will take too much effort and will be useless in a game where I also have to actually control my army.

What a load of crap.

Btw ghost, the topic is pretty interresting can't u split the topic or something?

[Elite]

I would like to see this attempted against a competent player 1v1.

[lightnessking.]

elite, could you please teach me your master micro skills, man you did a great job !! Especially when you lost 3 balista's vs 1, were we both had to ground attack and kill each other as a teammate! Man that was awesome, your micro skills were so ^, I almost wet my pants.

Teach & Marry me master,

Sincerely,

Da noob.

[Elite]

Sorry, team griefing is really not my department. I can refer you to a specialist in that area if you'd like.