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Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:49 pm
by Arntzen
Cavalry Archers seems to be the way to go. With proper micro there seems to be no way for the sword player to stop CA with 5+2 range and 16+6 speed from citizen harassment/killing. Spreading out vikings around your base and having towers up makes it difficult, but still.

On the other hand, for the Sword player to actually do damage against 16+6 group speed citizens with 4 morale and fortress up is incredibly hard.

I used to think in 1vs1 that swords are superior, but it seems to me now that it's only true to a certain level of play. What's really changing my mind is the early game harassment that the CA player can do. If it's done right you wont be able to kill a single CA while they're running around one hitting your citizens and eventually kills them off.

What do you guys think?

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:58 am
by lightnessking.
Imo there is one strategy a swordplayer can do to weaken/destroy the cav player, which is 6+5 arrow armor, 2x hp, 1x speed. Save up swords while your mines/forage are protected by towers (to prevent harrasment from cavalry). When you have a nice amount of swords, rush into the cav players base while and do your magic. If it works you win, if it doesn't you probably lose. If you have a good gold/iron mine with wood you could safely mix in longbows, but this takes time and by the time you got a decent amount of bow/swords your towers are most likely dead.

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:42 pm
by Arntzen
The idea that you're safe from CA harassment and can camp your base until F11 8 is obsolete. Even with towers up and swords (unless your base is absolutely amazing) CA can still harass you. They outrange the towers and outspeed the swords, meaning they can hit citizens and run without taking damage.

What I think is the best bet here is cutting citizen production fully at F11 5, get wood early, forget about farm and put up a siege factory asap. Once you run out of hippos your hunt is most likely dead so send these citizens to wood as well. Basically you'll have more swords than the F11 8 push and 4 siege towers for a push at f11 10. when you do the push send 12 iron working citizen to wood and start slowly to come back to some sort of boom.
Note that this push gets weaker and weaker depending on how much harassment you've taken.

Another point is that the CA player is less map dependent than the sword player. Even if you only have one gold close you can easily do this to the gold far away:
4wall1settle2.jpg
4wall1settle2.jpg (53.03 KiB) Viewed 15470 times

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:24 am
by _DavE_
Lightnessking - Somebody clearly hasn't played the likes of Krass', Nafrayus, Zens, Sams cav.

What you described was the usual way a Sword player beats a Cav player.. (minus the longbow mix, certainly not before 35-40 f11) Upgrading just 1x on Speed simply will not work vs 16+6 speed Cav.

Personally, I believe the best way is to literally bunker up your base. Prevent them from entering and harassing, keep them under pressure whilst massing and booming until you can mix siege towers with a hero. Obviously this is much more difficult than me just telling you what you should do. Also, you need to keep your hunt alive otherwise it's practically gg there against these standard of players.

P.S I blame you for that ridiculous wall around the second/third gold mines Zen. -.-

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:04 pm
by Samuel
I won't post the whole article since I have lost it, however here is a summary of the article written by eC DavE

"Mid SH is a dead set" by _[eC]_DavE_

Thesis: The introduction of lame abusive "strategies" has ruined the once beautiful gem that we once referred to as "Mid SH"
Key points:

1. _[eC]_SamueL_ has ruined cav vs swords play, with his introduction of 16+6 speed cavs and fortress
2. _[eC]_Arntzen_ has ruined harassing possibilities for sword players, by walling off his mines
3. _[eC]_Arntzen_ has ruined harassing possibilities for sword players, by speed glitching groups of citizens
4. _[eC]_SamueL_ and _[eC]_Arntzen_ have ruined intense cavs micro fights by bringing massive amounts of siege towers into the equation

Conclusions
Mid SH has clearly been sabotaged by these lame strategies, now a question arises: is Mid SH still a viable set? Discuss.

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:06 am
by Aizen
First time you say something right samuel, New strats Has ruined the beauty of Middle.

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:02 am
by lightnessking.
_DavE_ wrote:Lightnessking - Somebody clearly hasn't played the likes of Krass', Nafrayus, Zens, Sams cav.

What you described was the usual way a Sword player beats a Cav player.. (minus the longbow mix, certainly not before 35-40 f11) Upgrading just 1x on Speed simply will not work vs 16+6 speed Cav.

Personally, I believe the best way is to literally bunker up your base. Prevent them from entering and harassing, keep them under pressure whilst massing and booming until you can mix siege towers with a hero. Obviously this is much more difficult than me just telling you what you should do. Also, you need to keep your hunt alive otherwise it's practically gg there against these standard of players.

P.S I blame you for that ridiculous wall around the second/third gold mines Zen. -.-
Sorry for giving a basic 'strategy that could work' without going in depth. It really depends on how you play swords,just like you claim it's based on how someone plays cav.
And your statement about me clearly havent played against nafray's or sams cav is wrong, I have. Stop making assumptions about things you don't know.

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:57 pm
by Samuel
To be fair my cavs were nowhere this level when we played lol

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:26 pm
by _DavE_
Considering you haven't played in god knows how long, then NO you have not played Krass', Sam's, Nafrayus level of cav.
Try sword verse them, I am pretty confident you won't win any games, possibly one with a little luck. Then get back to me, thanks.

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:44 am
by lightnessking.
_DavE_ wrote:Considering you haven't played in god knows how long, then NO you have not played Krass', Sam's, Nafrayus level of cav.
Try sword verse them, I am pretty confident you won't win any games, possibly one with a little luck. Then get back to me, thanks.
Someone doesn't understand the concept of 'have played'. It could have happened 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 1 year ago, 1 hour ago. Not something in the future.
I think you're confusing with haven't played vs them with are going to play vs them.

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:36 am
by Arntzen
Someone gotta realize that someone is talking about the present while someone is talking about the past.

Meanwhile this one doesn't understand why someone and someone doesn't talk to each other properly instead of this someone nonsense.

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:28 am
by TzarKosta
build a Field Cannon CIV and a CAV Arch player has no chance :lol: :mrgreen:

currently the only way to beat a strong cav player with swords are very fast sword rushes
but invents new strategies dont copy always 0815 strats
there is always be possibility to hit someone with his strategy

reminds me where many people have excitedly earlier that in mid age liga 1v1 assys are the best civ and it was boring
all plays with it. until I have them converse proved.

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:57 am
by Black Star
wait Tzar, are you saying theres a better strat for Liga 1v1 Mid Age then Assys cavs?

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:33 am
by TzarKosta
Yes there is a secret civ who beat every assy cav player but I will not tell you :ncool: :mrgreen:
I do not know if anyone knows but I've invented at that liga time.
i used only in ladder games and specific Players.

should there be a liga tournament again this is my secret weapon against you ee freaks :mrgreen:

Re: Middle 1vs1 discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:57 pm
by Arntzen
TzarKosta wrote:Yes there is a secret civ who beat every assy cav player but I will not tell you :ncool: :mrgreen:
Hax?