Enable/Disable autoattack from Towers

[Arntzen]

Spora has obviously not played alot of pre. Reason we have a rule vs Ak is because it ruins the setting. Reason we do allow plague/towertrick is because this is not that efficient. Ak-rule actually does something to the set, where as the other rule will only "help the idiot" who has bad towerplacement.
On the other hand we wud allow ak-ing with another foragepatch I think.

[lightnessking.]

Even with a 3rd forage patch it shouldn't be allowed since you can let hunt breed, so if you got 4 hunters on it, you will never run out of food unless animal killing is allowed. Wasting your army just to kill someone's last hunt will be worth it.

[Lancelot5]

but what sense make towers doesnt attack?,

Men u didnt get it. U will have a Button to change between auto attack and stop. If u not press that button towers will work as now.

maybe im wrong, but pre game is a real random game, u have good animals and it work, u dont have , u fail Ralf

Yes hunt is mostly not that fair. Thatswhy we play on eec only maps with water there it isnt that big problem. Althought u have disadvantage too.

Maybe add another foodpatch for each player just for 3v3's atleast

Yeah its maybe a good idea to become more independent from hunt on plains map. Dont understands lights argument to this suggestion. More food makes hunt less important. Althought we have to keep in mind that u gather hunt faster.

Reason we do allow plague/towertrick is because this is not that efficient.

Na if I or any other good player with some micro do that, all would just start crying. Its actually not allowed to plague hunt as players told me.
All in all the main problem for pre is that hunt on plains is very important. AOC players love plains because there is more room for attacks. So map there is always plains. And because of the reason that there is no fish u stick longer in pre-copper compared to maps with water. That makes every hunt so much important. If all would stop crying when their hunt got killed by some towers because of wrong placement i can accept it but plague hunt is to powerfull and will ruin game. But no plague leads to 2 other problems. I dislike it when some players run with citz to hunt while u attacking them with plagued clubs and cry afterwards about losing hunt. For me its their own fault then. But the other point is that players will run with plagued clubs into ur hunt and say that u were trying to save some citz there... althought they just come to kill ur hunt.
Finally i must say that there to many players that lie,got no respect or good attitude. They will always try to bitching arround thatswhy we need fucking rules like no -animal kill, -priesttowers or -minewall.

[lightnessking.]

@ Lance, the problem with forages is, after gathering 2500 food out of it, it dissapears. With hunt you can gather unlimited food (if you control your citz and don't let them overhunt.) So with one more forage patch, people will spend food faster aswell, resulting in less food.

Of course a 3rd forage patch will help the food problems, but it can't replace the hunt.

[Arntzen]

Yes lightness, this is obviously not a perfect solution.. But it can make pre MORE fair. Idno just saying my thoughts.
Guy with more hunt will be less powerfull cause of 3 patches. Still pretty powerfull tho;p
Also i wud rather have 3 patches then for example uppgrade the 2 patches to 3200ish each.

[Elite]

Well, since I played pre before the no AK rule was put into effect, back in the days of boliver shags nasty and The OutKast and ! ! and 20 cit PT rushes, I will explain exactly what happens if you allow the killing of hunt in a pre-space game on plains. You'll have at least one player on each team run around the map with their first 2 clubs, and kill every animal on the other side before anyone has enough clubs to prevent this. The only reason it wouldn't be like mid with everyone club rushing their opponent and immediately killing hunt is that less food dependent strategies would become necessary. Basically, every decent player would lure their hippos at start, and then blob cits on any secondary hunt, and then just turtle and go copper. The game would just become "kill enemy herd as fast as possible then sit til copper" and you'd probably see alot more towering and spears in 4v4. Massing clubs would become a non-viable strategy.

[Arntzen]

Yeah I see what you mean Elite.
Wondering what you think of one more foragepatch each player map (atleast for 3v3 medium)?
Not to allow ak-ing again, but to make the games more fair. Pre is the most populair set so also the most competive. Think me vs you on pocket. I have dobble hunt and you non. I dont consider myself close to you in pre, but with dobble hunt its auto-gg normally. Even p2n medit imo. Obviously the dobblehunt-guy has an awesome advantage, but not as big. Also I'm thinking a new plains map, not to replace it.

[Omega]

If you're brainstorming creative solutions to a way to remove the no animal killing rule by altering the maps and/or settings played...

Option 1: Play continental, or at least a modified version of continental with more fish. You've now eliminated the reliance on hunt once a player reaches stone age. You haven't restricted avenues of attack compared to plains that much.

Option 2: Modify a plains map to have a LOT more hunt. Namely, it should have enough extra hunt that it's not realistic to kill it all before players are capable of protecting it. Think something like Map X, but toned down a bit. If the extra hunt is truely worrisome, you could tone it down a bit further (but still have a good amount extra) and add fair amount of NEUTRAL forage patches (kind of like how there are typically neutral mines located towards the center of the map).

Option 3: Some combination of Option 1 and Option 2.

[lightnessking.]

And is it possible to let hunt breed without a herd? Let's say spawning hunt on the map every f11 10 (only a few animals.) Who breed after that? I know it's possible in scenario editor, but is it possible to have it done without scen editor?

[sporaTiK]

Spora has obviously not played alot of pre. Reason we have a rule vs Ak is because it ruins the setting. Reason we do allow plague/towertrick is because this is not that efficient. Ak-rule actually does something to the set, where as the other rule will only "help the idiot" who has bad towerplacement.
On the other hand we wud allow ak-ing with another foragepatch I think.

Kaz you are an idiot... no new news there eh EE community? You only need to play one pre game to know what's up. Anyway my argument was about the tower strat and the plague strat to kill hunt. You did nothing to refute my argument besides saying the tower start is not efficient? how is it not? you run a single club back and forth by hunt and tower kills all, end of story. Anyway I will rest my case on this issue since i'm obviously right in that both should be outlawed if there is a rule such as 'No AK'.

I know how the sett would be altered without a 'NO AK' rule... it doesn't take much brain power, bud.

[Arntzen]

My first sentence as reply to your post was uncalled for, unnecessary and dumb. I apoligize.
You said something in the lines of "if you dont allow ak then towertrick/plague hunt should also not be allowed".
You know why we dont allow aking, so I'm not gonna go into that.

Towertrick:
This Indeed can be effective IF you let your enemie do this. I've never had a problem with this because of army/towerplacement. True you can loose 1-2 hunt to this, but barely never more then that and most of the time you'll loose nothing.
Why make a gamerule vs something you can easly counter with club/towerplacement?

Plague hunt:
This also can easly be counted by running citz away. Why make a rule against it?

Maybe my reasoning is stupid, as you said, but I have not yet seen an argument that will change my mind.

[Elite]

Couple of things,

First this game has always come down to luck in alot of respects, the smaller the game down to 1v1 the more obvious this is. Its a very map dependent game, where you have 2 players of close to equal skill, the one with the better map has a huge advantage. Yes you can improve your map with walls/civ choice but this is only true to an extent, especially like kaz said in his post, no secondary hunt at your base in pre is gonna hurt no matter what.

I don't really care to alter the maps to deal with this, its just something thats always been the case and long time players kindof accept it going in, we may bitch about it, but it is what it is.

Continental is nice obviously for fishing and we used to play it all the time on aoc, problem is because of the terrain the map allows for more defensive play, not as bad as medit on eec but if there's alot of hills/lakes in the middle smart tower/scout placement can basically lock you out of the other side of the map, whereas on plains its usually possible to sneak up on people if you're clever. Also conti sucks for booming, every time I play it I can rarely find room for 8-9 farms near my base.

As for killing animals with tower/plague, thats something I don't think needs to be ruled against, I don't really want to see pre games with tag lines like "pre no pt ak reli siege boats towers groupspeed etc you get the idea." The way its always been on aoc is if you play gay every game, you're gonna get a reputation for that, and people will either kick you or do something very ugly to you in the first few minutes of the game. Play with respect, as calv would say. We're all here to have fun, its unnecessary to play like a bastard every game. Acceptable at times, especially if your team is at a disadvantage or you're playing against a European, but not every game.

[Elite]

When people talk about plaguing hunt they arent referring to the cits, basically someone plagues you at their base, you beeline for their animals and kill all of them with plague. I admit to doing this occasionally because I have a dim view of people who hide in their base with prophets because they completely fail at club massing.

My first sentence as reply to your post was uncalled for, unnecessary and dumb. I apoligize.
You said something in the lines of "if you dont allow ak then towertrick/plague hunt should also not be allowed".
You know why we dont allow aking, so I'm not gonna go into that.

Towertrick:
This Indeed can be effective IF you let your enemie do this. I've never had a problem with this because of army/towerplacement. True you can loose 1-2 hunt to this, but barely never more then that and most of the time you'll loose nothing.
Why make a gamerule vs something you can easly counter with club/towerplacement?

Plague hunt:
This also can easly be counted by running citz away. Why make a rule against it?

Maybe my reasoning is stupid, as you said, but I have not yet seen an argument that will change my mind.

[Jack1st]

the problem is that in order to plague hunting cits you mostly need to run through the hunt with ur plagued clubs which is ak then imo.

well if i have clubs, whether plagued or not, and i see cits on hunt... im gunna go after them. So, it is your fault for having cits close to hunt. This is the same as the tower dilemma and saying its ok to run a club back and forth to kill hunt. only difference is tower versus plague. For the record I think pre is noob and pretty boring... and if you make a gay rule saying 'NO AK' then there should be no intentional AK including the tower dilemma and plague. You can't allow one and not the other since both are intentional and both are using the enemy against itself. You guys have weird reasoning.

sporA_


BTW: pre would be more interesting with no rules (aka: animal kill allowed). The way LEET pLaYas pLaY

u need to differ between plagued clubs who aim for your hunt and clubs who try to use your towers in order to kill your hunt. hunting is necessary in pre set so it cant be rly your "fault" for having your cits close to hunt whereas building towers too close to hunt is not necessary. furthermore you can easily avoid the second thing whereas you cant prevent your hunt from being plagued since temples wont help and stopping someone who intentionally aims for your hunt is rly difficult.

[sporaTiK]

Thanks Kaz for not talking shit or being pretentious in a post, very much appreciated.

First of all I agree with Elite in that I don't think anything should be changed regarding maps as well as rules. I'm just saying if you make a rule against plaguing hunt, you should make one against the tower micro. Making the two issues clear (hopefully):

PLAGUE: If I send in plagued clubs and the enemy has a lot of cits on hunt... i'm gunna go after the cits regardless of animals (THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN LANCELOTS GAME THAT BROUGHT THIS WHOLE TOPIC UP). Enemy accused him of plaguing hunt but he just went after the cits that were hunting and plauged hunt in the process.

TOWER: Yes you can defend the tower micro with army etc but you dont always have an army there. A lot of times you put an early tower by hunt to prevent enemy from getting it. OR in early game when you have just put up towers and have little army... enemy can even use their scout dog to do this.

I don't care for a rule against either, but I feel if you make a rule against one... you should make one against the other. Cliffy dropped instantly b/c one hippo was plagued so not all good players are cool with this happening... and ppl dropping b/c of these ruin the game. Kaz and Elite say they don't mind these strats saying it's part of the game. So, i feel like what is "respectful" isn't considered respectful to everyone regardless of skill level. Either you allow it or not but you can't allow one over the other imo and if you still disagree then we can agree to disagree.