My opinion of the people who can give good games

[Ghost]

Mass of text

1v1s, exaggerated generalization:

You double settle
Goldeneye forage booms just about every fucking game
Krass over-commits to the rush
Splinter follows the standard rush-boom build order precisely to the letter and without much error, which is what makes him good
Ras has extraordinary improvisation
Dave in 2 words as requested: really shitty


As I noted before, you keep coming back to this idea of "1v1 Liga" which is a foolishly narrow scope.

Admittedly I was not as involved with Liga 1v1 as you were, however I've seen more of it from them in the past and more recent past than you think.

Are u referring to bones?

Perhaps

[Arntzen]

Oooooh snapp! It's on! Cant wait for Sam's reply..

[simple_faith]

ghost is gonna win because he has been around for a long time whilst samuel is new school, etcetc.

[_thor]

is mid sh good anymore

[Icestorm2]

We generally get a good series of 4v4s four or five nights a week.

[Samuel]

ghost is gonna win because he has been around for a long time whilst samuel is new school, etcetc.

A friendly note directed to faith's mind, that can apparently do nothing better than divide the world in "simple" black and white categories. There is no victory nor loss: this is just an exchange of ideas.
I am really sorry that you think me and Ghost are thinking about it the same way you would do if it was yourself being involved ... a crusade against the whole world ... some well known mindset that has got you the hatred of most of the community members, and being almost officially recognized as a lobby reject.

But I will make good use of your post and use it to underline once again, that luckily me and ghost are smarter than that and can actually have an exchange of ideas free from simple faith's like childish attitude.

I will reply to Ghost in some hours as soon as I come back home.

[[-Ts-] Tricky]

Thing is ras never says or claims he is best if one of you ask ras whats your top 5 liga players he will name oldschool past liga players who he has seen play. So all this list are def 2007+ would be a totaly different list if we talking about the games where you had 100+ liga players in it. So when we saying whos the best at ee guess we aint saying whos best all timer of liga cus dont think you get a clear idea of who it is aless you go back to 2002 and that.

[Samuel]

Mass of text

1v1s, exaggerated generalization:

You double settle
Goldeneye forage booms just about every fucking game
Krass over-commits to the rush
Splinter follows the standard rush-boom build order precisely to the letter and without much error, which is what makes him good
Ras has extraordinary improvisation
Dave in 2 words as requested: really shitty

As I reply I will keep in mind that you've just made quick responses.

1_ It is true I mostly play 2 settlement starts, at least these days. I sometimes used to play other strategies as well like 2 years ago, but as for today, I would rather 2 settle. Given the fact that it's a generalization, ok.

2_When I played Goldeneye in 2010, he only played TC boom at forage at Digi and Nano age. And just as soon as he came back, before playing him, I asked KrasS what Goldi's style was, and his reply was "2 settle". I'd say you got it wrong on Goldi, not sure how much you really know about him at least in Liga 1v1.

3_ Whilst Krass definitely wasn't a purely rusher, as he played great booming games too and 2 settle strategies, it is however true that yours is a generalization, and Krass really loved to rush in many of his games, at least until the end of 2010.

4_I am not sure what you mean here because it could mean anything.

5_I think you are referring to ras and his unusual strats that he sometimes pulls off successfully. However, just one thing. Most of Ras' unusual strategies (that he wouldn't play in a serious game by the way) aren't the consequence of improvisation, since they have actually been well thought of beforehand.

6_I reckon you really don't know Dave, because anybody who has taken the time to actually play him in a real 1v1 after 2010, would have noticed how good he is.


Considered yours are just generalizations, some of them are true, some of them aren't. I think you have little idea about Goldeneye's gameplay in Liga 1v1 (although you probably have clearer ideas about him at other sets), and I think you never saw Dave play a real Liga 1v1 game after 2010.
Regarding the correct generalizations, it's still to be seen how much you have been actually following the recent players' developments in the last 2 years and a half.


I will now post my ranking and I will also explore some controversial topics, such as the infamous "ras doesn't try", and I think this might surprise some people.

[Samuel]

As I do this ranking, there's something that I'd like to say: I am capable of talking about what every single one of the players I'm going to mention plays at every single age, with very few exceptions. I could talk to you about how Krass precisely plays Renaissance, about Good Game (BONES)'s strategies at bronze age, about Splinter's strategies at Mod age, or about ras' strategies at stone age.
I will also give credits to ras and say what I think he really is as a player, and explore the controversial issue of ras' "not trying".

This is gonna be a loooong post, and I am sure some people will not read it, or just read it partially. I'm still sure that some people, including Krass and ras (who are silent spectators of this topic) might find it interesting, as well as Kazter and Nemo (maybe), and perhaps others.
Most of my opinions are explained here, you can feel free to skip some parts if you aren't interested in some of the players, just go read the player you are interested in.

I will post my ranking first, and then explain every choice:

8_Wolvy/Kirac (when he doesn't act clown-like playing random stuff)
7_ras
6_Bones (Good Game)
5_Dave
4_Splinter, ras
3_Myst
2_Goldeneye
1_Krass


8_Wolvy is an exceptionally solid player, with quite good booming skills. His legendary supposedly unmatched booming skills were overrated by average-not so good players years ago.
The way Wolvy gets a better economy in many games is the consequence of his SLIGHTLY delayed mix. If he is playing, for example, a Renaissance Austria game, and start 2 settle infantry, he will add stable at a slightly later stage than the usual player, and get a farm in the process. This is also true for stone age, where he does the same thing before getting bows, and sometimes might even get a TC at the same time.
This works especially well against 2 settlers, since most of the times by the time they get to his base, he has the same amount of army with, however a better boom. He can sometimes suffer against quick 1 settlement strategies, but mostly he is still able to get the win (he is in fact one of the best liga players) using his better abilities. I could spend even more time talking about how Wolvy, more or less unconsciously, gets the economical advantage over most of his enemies, and at most of the ages, but I won't talk anymore about it or it would take up too much time, you can ask me on lobby if interested. His strength is his solid play, and his weakness is his strategical play (I think almost every single player on my list would confirm that), and that's why he is "just" number 8.


7_Here comes the controversial issue: ras and the so called "he was just trying" phenomenon. Although being exaggerated by some of his fans (no sarcasm, I just mean people who consider him to be the best player), there is actually some truth in this. As you have seen I have in fact put ras in 2 different positions of my ranking. I will explore this issue as soon as I get to talk about number 4.

6_BONES, aka proActive or Good Game, is a really direct player with a lot of 1v1ing experience. Whoever is opponent is, BONES plays to win, and even though he can of course pull a good boom, he mostly focuses on army production more than he does on his economy, as his style is typically very direct. He can adapt to his enemy very well and as a consequence he might change his game style depending on the enemy he's facing (something that Wolvy wouldn't do for istance) and his Assyrians vs Austria match-up at Bronze Age is one of the best I have seen, and that means a lot as Assyrians vs Austria at age 4 is one of the hardest match-ups of the game. His strength is strategy and his direct style, and the reason he's "only" 6th is that I have found him to be somewhat inconsistent, he might rock the world one day, and play relatively "bad" another day.

5_Dave, on the other hand, is an extremely consistent player, and he tends to mass many units quite quickly, sometimes at his economy's expense, but this has secured him a high number of games against many players. In the recent years he has developed a solid 1v1ing experience and is never afraid of confrontation. However, he tends to play the same starts (though he sometimes plays a few rushes) and lacks strategy, and this is the reason why he is "only" number 5.

[Samuel]

4_Splinter is a really consistent and direct player, with a very good strategical sense. People have thought Splinter to be somewhat stupid, but that's just due to his bad english, and most people in Italy don't care about learning foreign languages, but I can assure you that he is a very fine strategist. In his arsenal he has got rushes, a very good early game and his late game seems to be solid too. I have had over 1000 games with him, and he has got a really good experience in 1v1s. When he is particularly inspired he can beat almost any opponent, and he once successfully killed off Myst 3 - 0. In mid 2010 Krass regarded him as "one of the toughest challenges I have ever had".

Ras is surely one of the game's best strategicians. After thinking carefully about it, I have realize that it's actually true, there are really 2 versions of this player, the "calm ras", and the "skillful ras" (I'm going to call them like that), and proof of this lies in the different player speed. The unusual strategies mean NOTHING in this matter, since ras might decide to play with an unusual strategy in both cases (he will play a normal strategy if he plays to win though), depending on who he is playing against and maybe on his mood.
The ras that holds the 7th position of my ranking is characterized by a player speed of about 700-800, and the 4th position ras has a player speed of about 1500-2000. Although many players might argue that player speed has little value, it is however true that this higher player speed sort of proves the fact that he is putting more effort into his game. And differences in his gameplay can as well be spotted.

I have played ras in the early 2011, and we played 1v1s as well as spent time talking about strategy. The first games we had he would play unusual strategies and had a ps of about 700-800. After some games i explicitedly asked him to play normally, and this time his ps raised to a number that stretches from 1500 to 2000, adding not only knowledge, but also skill to his gameplay.
What I noticed was that, I would be able to get some edge on the early game or evenbe able to counter him in the early game analysis of the game (his early game is still extremely good), but in a Nano Age game he showed a particularly strong and solid late game.
As I previously said in another topic, Ras has got a really solid early game analysis (although not as good as mine or as Krass') and a really strong late game (although not as good as Goldi's). Goldeneye has got an even better long game which I have found to be almost free of any mistake, but I think ras has the edge on him in early game analysis.

I rate KrasS early game to be very similar to mine, although Krass beats me in the long game. It is entirely possible that ras' late game is better than KrasS', although I think they are quite similar, but ras might have a tiny edge here. KrasS has had the same "unluck" as me I think, his particular strength in the early game has "weakened" him in the long run (even though he's still one of the best long game players), since a lot of his games are settled by f11 10, even when he is playing 2 settlement or TC boom: Goldeneye's weaker early game has given him the chance to perfect his long games some more (his Mod DM might have helped him too).

3_Myst is an exceptionally skillful player, and his micro is his trademark. Although his strategy isn't really the best, his micro abilities and his overall skills are extremely strong. You never realize how many hills there are on a map until you play versus Myst. He plays extremely actively and very strong at every age.
The reason why he isn't #1 or #2 is because of his strategical weakness. If we were to analyze a possible match ras vs Myst, I'd say Myst would have the edge on the ages from bronze age to industrial age, bronze age to middle age in particular (ras could still have his say in ren to imperial, where they both like to play assyrians). I think pre to copper would be close (although I'd say Myst at copper age) and the result on the other ages appears to be uncertain.

I'm not going to talk about Splint vs Myst, I just talked about ras vs Myst because I thought it might have interested some people (Kazter and ras).

2_Goldeneye
1_Krass

The reason why I put krass over Goldeneye is something I have already talked about in one of my previous posts.


Where would I stand in the ranking? I know exactly where .... but I'm not gonna say, and reason why I won't do it isn't because it would be unfair to include myself in a ranking that I am myself making, but because I don't want people who, with not even half of the knowledge that I have on these players, would use it as an excuse to generate useless hatred.
However, if any of you is interested in knowing where I would put myself in my ranking, you can freely ask me on lobby, and I will tell you along with the reasons.

[lightnessking.]

Well, I actually read the whole post and I'd find it kinda interesting, could you message me on the forum about where you place yourself? I can't login the lobby atm.

[[-Ts-] Tricky]

pretty nice to see sam explaining in full is opinion of his ranking and a full reason why nice job

fred flint fwd

[lightnessking.]

pretty nice to see sam explaining in full is opinion of his ranking and a full reason why nice job

fred flint fwd

Yea it's weird I can't see fred flint on this list anywhere... Are pre players excluded? Fred has a nice tower strat :O.

[[-Ts-] Tricky]

lol i see him beat manni with towers a preist before fred fwd lol

[Samuel]

I was asked to comment on Kirac, I will do it later in the day since I'm quite tired after typying this much xD